This is the recent traffic on the #SPF-council IRC channel on irc.pobox.com. Anyone may join the channel, but only council members can talk.

If you do not have access to IRC, you may view the recent traffic at: http://www.schlitt.net/spf/spf-council/now/irc_log.html.

This log can be can be viewed at: http://www.schlitt.net/spf/spf-council/2004/12/05_irc_log.html.

IRC nicknames:
csmChuck Mead
freesideMeng Weng Wong
grumpyWayne Schlitt
JulianJulian Mehnle
MarkKMark Kramer (asarian-host.net)

--- Wed Dec 1 17:14:17 UTC 2004 ---
17:14<MarkK>hi wayne
17:14*grumpy tries to figure out the "voice" options to IRC
17:15<MarkK>you mean to 'silence' someone?
17:15<grumpy>yeah, so that anyone can watch, but only council members can talk.
17:15<grumpy>try to say something
17:16<grumpy>try to say something now
17:17<MarkK>I did :) It said, 'cannot send to channel'
17:17<grumpy>ok, it appears that if you have ops, you have a voice
17:17<grumpy>if you don't have ops, you can be given a voice.
17:17<MarkK>yes; that is perfect
17:23<MarkK>btw, the Received-SPF header came up again; we might want to do something with that too; like I posted, ever since the MarkL draft, its status has become somewhat unstable/undefined.
17:23<MarkK>Your draft puts it back in, if I recall correctly
17:24<grumpy>Yes, and I need to work on it.
17:27<MarkK>welcome
17:27<csm-laptop>okees
17:27<MarkK>you have now :)
17:27<csm-laptop>csm and csm-laptop are my two ID's if something can be set up to allow both that would be great
17:29<grumpy>join with both
17:29<grumpy>or, I can get a bot to auto-op certain people.
17:31<MarkK>my sentiments exactly
17:51<csm-laptop>well my other client is running at home... that's the regular csm one... this one is... obviously... the laptop
17:53<grumpy>I'm working on getting the auto-op bot working now.
17:53<grumpy>once done, you should be able to come and go as you please
17:53<MarkK>great!
17:53<csm-laptop>cool
18:07<csm-laptop>that's one thing about having a group made up entirely of technical savants... getting things done quickly is not a problem is it's only a technical issue
18:09<MarkK>yes; it is the poltics that usually slow things down
18:11<grumpy>Well, considering that the bot I'm trying to make work is written in Python, and I don't know python, I'm not too sure about getting this done "quickly". ;-)
18:23<MarkK>I am not too fond of python myself; it looks just like Perl, but less readable. ;) Although I'm sure real Python adepts would say the opposite. :)
18:49<grumpy>could someone try leaving and rejoining the channel?
18:50*grumpy grumbles
18:51<grumpy>yay!
18:51<grumpy>could you try again?
18:56<MarkK>yay!
18:56<grumpy>Ugh, you did it right when I took 0pm3 down... could you try again?
18:57<MarkK>it seems you are more proficient in Python than you gave yourself credit for! )
18:57<MarkK>It says: "* {0pm3} sets mode: +o MarkK"
18:57<grumpy>No, my friend writes perfect perl code
18:57<MarkK>seems to work
18:58<MarkK>works smoothly
18:58<grumpy>ok, now all I need to know is the /whois info for csm (not csm-laptop) and Julian
18:58<MarkK>is it nick-based?
18:58<grumpy>no
18:58<grumpy>I think it is "user" based.
18:59<grumpy>e.g., I trigger off of ~admin@mail.asarian-host.net
18:59<grumpy>(the ~ is important. That was why it didn't work the first time.)
18:59<grumpy>is that secure enough?
19:00<grumpy>the other channel that this was used on didn't need very much security.
19:00<MarkK>yes; think so; the ~ is from the ident server, I think
19:01*MarkK says: it has been a while since I programmed irc stuff; but if I recall correctly, the ~ LHS comes from the local ident server (built into mIRC)
19:02<MarkK>funny name, though, 0pm3 :)
19:02<grumpy>Well, if it ever doesn't have ops, I think it screams OP ME!
19:03<MarkK>LOL, now I get it!
19:10<MarkK>seems to work real well
19:10*grumpy is having a hard time getting the code to set +m working
19:12<MarkK>hello?
19:13<grumpy>?
19:13<MarkK>just testing if I had a voice :)
19:13<grumpy>oh, you have ops.
19:13<MarkK>Oh yes
19:13<grumpy>but if anyone enters right now, they have a voice
19:13<grumpy>0pm3 should fix that automatically
19:14<grumpy>s/should/is designed to/
19:15*grumpy discovers that he is changing the wrong line of code
19:16<grumpy>Duh!
19:30<csm-laptop>okay... callbacks from moongroup are now from <> instead of postmaster
19:31<MarkK>good :)
19:31<MarkK>Then I can send SRS addresses to it again :)
19:33*MarkK reminds himself to be careful not go get into it again with David Woodhouse
19:34<csm-laptop>sometime when I am not teaching I'd like to hear more about this issue... no time for it now... callbacks with postmaster seems reasonable to me... but plz don't get into it now... I have 20 students here in class and cannot focus on it now
19:52<MarkK>hello
20:00<MarkK>hmm, bot keeps shifting in and out a bit :)
20:00<grumpy>JUST ONE MORE BUG!!!
20:02<MarkK>it seems to quit, actually (not disconnect because of timeout and such)
20:03<grumpy>that's a feature. I'm supposed to be able to do a /msg {0pm3} die
20:03<grumpy>but, for some reason, doing a '/msg 0pm3 die' didn't work. Duh.
20:05<MarkK>:)
20:06<grumpy>Yah!
20:06<grumpy>it set the mode!
20:06<MarkK>yes, it did at that!
20:11<MarkK>good work, wayne!
20:40<freeside>what's the email address for the spf-council mailing list?
20:41<freeside>can we move it to listbox to keep everything consistent?
20:43<MarkK>pf-council@moongroup.com
20:43<grumpy>spf even
20:43<MarkK>spf-council@moongroup.com, even
20:43<grumpy>Hey! {0pm3} worked from freeside on the first try!
20:46<freeside>yeah, pretty cool, eh
20:46<freeside>+v would be preferable to +o though
20:47<grumpy>I can do both...
20:47<MarkK>+v? what dies that do again?
20:47<MarkK>does, even
20:47<grumpy>gives voice
20:47<MarkK>duh
20:48<MarkK>:)
20:48<freeside>speaking of giving voice
20:48<freeside>it would be really nice to raise the level of discourse on the list
20:48<freeside>by perhaps censuring certain outrageously inappropriate forms of behaviour
20:49<freeside>saying, for instance, "no. you are clueless." or "you work fo ra large corporation, all large corporations are evil, therefore you are evil" or more simply calling verisign VeriSlime
20:49<grumpy>the reasons why it gives ops is: 1) that's what the bot originally did. 2) if there is a net-split or something that causes the bot to lose ops, someone needs to be around to give it ops again.
20:49<grumpy>freeside: I agree.
20:49<MarkK>or calling long-standing members trolls for merely disagreeing with them
20:49<grumpy>but, I thought that was what greg and you were doing.
20:49<freeside>i mean, we can have a list with kooks, we can have a list with corporate representatives, but i don't think we can have a list with both
20:50<grumpy>you are calling PHB a kook?
20:50<freeside>huh, good point. i didn't think about kooky corporate representatives
20:50<csm-laptop>what about woodshed?
20:50<grumpy>not to mention evil people
20:50<csm-laptop>does he qualify as a kook?
20:50<MarkK>it has deteriorated some, of late
20:50<freeside>PHB may be obnoxious but he's generally right, and he doesn't cross the line when he talks about trolls.
20:50<grumpy>csm-laptop: woodshed is probably not a good term
20:50<freeside>i mea, truth is the best defense.
20:50<csm-laptop>I mean last week we were all wearing underwear on our heads according to him!
20:50<freeside>and people are, in fact, pretty trollish sometims.
20:51<freeside>so, i'm just bringing this up with the council
20:51<grumpy>I don't think Seth was being a troll, and I *do* think PHB crossed the line.
20:52<MarkK>I think he did too; it was very uncalled for
20:52<csm-laptop>grumpy: what's wrong with woodshed as a euphimism for woodhouse?
20:52<grumpy>it isn't his correct name.
20:52*grumpy is very sensitive about dropping the 'l' in schlitt
20:52<grumpy>;-)
20:52<csm-laptop>yes but it's how I think of him andyou understood me...
20:52<csm-laptop>he-he
20:53<grumpy>seriously, I'm not sensitive at all, but I think not using peoples proper names lowers the level of discourse
20:53<MarkK>reality is, opponenent of SPF will often try their case, ad nauseam almost, in here; and that is perhaps not really a bad thing. I, for one, will from now on be more responsible in not engaging them endless rounds that go nowhere.
20:54<csm-laptop>MarkK: agreed
20:54<grumpy>We want to encourage serious criticisms, just not the repeated ad-nauseam ones.
20:54<csm-laptop>in fact certain users mail simply goes "Pl0nk!" for me now
20:55<freeside>one of my goals for a future reputation system is for "plonk"ing to become visible publicly.
20:55<csm-laptop>okay so here is a question
20:55<freeside>so peopel can subscribe to killfiles in the same way they can subscribe to mailing lists
20:55<freeside>yay for balkanization!
20:55<csm-laptop>do we want to redefine the lists?
20:55<csm-laptop>eg.
20:55<freeside>i suppose i should nto be surprised that in SFO a reasonably well-muscled middle-aged guy is wearing tight black leather pants.
20:56<grumpy>no, you shouldn't be.
20:56<grumpy>you should be surprised that he is wearing any pants at all. ;-)
20:56<csm-laptop>the discuss list is for discussion on how spf works and improving it perhaps... the neagative opinions may only be discussed on ALT+opinion+SPF after the opinion holder implements their own list?
20:56<freeside>i would also like the list to stop bashing DK and alternative technologies
20:57<freeside>promote your own thing, and if somebody else is into their other thing, more power to them.
20:57<freeside>miles libbey didn't win any points with anyone when he startede bashing spf and sender id at recent conferences.
20:57<grumpy>csm-laptop: isn't that waht SPF-help is for?
20:57<MarkK>I think important, at least for me, is to determine motive. If I feel someone is just out there to weaken SPF (with the obvious agenda of promotinhg their own stuff), then I think I should not go hat way anymore. Not that overstate my new role in the council, of course; but I *do* feel that it comes with the responsibility of trying to stay above the fray, and not going in deep in every skirmish.
20:57<csm-laptop>grumpy: what do you mean... the help list is which?
20:58<MarkK>I think I am not even on spf-help. ;)
20:58<grumpy>SPF-help is where you are supposed to post requests about implementing SPF on your site and how it works.
20:59<grumpy>spf-devel is about creating SPF implementations
20:59<csm-laptop>grumpy: okay what I mean is SPF at the protocol definition level... not the implementation level
20:59<grumpy>MarkK: I'm subscribed, but I think I'm over 1000 msg behind on reading it.
20:59<MarkK>I am on devel; I will subscribe to help, too
20:59<csm-laptop>brb
21:00<grumpy>anyway, I agree about raising the level of discourse and I think the council should delegate that to gconnor and freeside.
21:00<grumpy>although having someone else help out might not be a bad idea. Maybe someone in europe.
21:01<MarkK>yes; gconner has already done that job admirably
21:01<MarkK>I am in Europe, too :)
21:02<grumpy>WEll, freeside is also in Europe about 25% of the time. ;-)
21:03<MarkK>I would be perfectly comfortable with letting freeside and gconner take the honors
21:04*grumpy would like to see some of the load being taken off freeside
21:05<MarkK>I would not mind doing it; but I do not want to diss gconner in the process
21:10<MarkK>anyone else from europe?
21:11<grumpy>Uh, gmx, jpinx, julian, and quite a few others
21:11<MarkK>jpinx would be good too
21:23<grumpy>MarkK: could you exit and rejoin?
21:23<grumpy>Hmmm... no voice
21:23<MarkK>Ok; just checking; it sets +o
21:23<MarkK>but +o already has a voice ;)
21:26<MarkK>*pout*
21:27<grumpy>apparently, +ov doesn't work, you have to use two mode commands
21:27<MarkK>shouldn't 0pm3 have done +v on me?
21:28<grumpy>it doesn't constantly rescan. it only checks when someone enters or on startup
21:29<grumpy>try now
21:29<grumpy>oh, wait
21:29<MarkK>yes, that makes sense; channel entries generate a system message to every person on channel
21:29<csm-laptop>I had thought gconnor was doing a good job
21:30<MarkK>I think so too
21:30<grumpy>he doesn't do a quick job when he is a sleep.
21:30<grumpy>that's my only objection, and it isn't a strong one
21:30<grumpy>we should just ask greg if he wants help, and if so, who he would recommend
21:30<MarkK>he is generally very tactful
21:35<MarkK>well, talking about sleep, I need to go to bed. ;) Its been a long day. Tommorow things will be official, and hopefully julian will be here, too.
21:36<MarkK>goodnight
21:36<grumpy>bibi
--- Thu Dec 2 15:07:07 UTC 2004 ---
15:07<freeside>so i've had some ideas about reinventing governance processes
15:07<freeside>i mean, if we're going to take over the world, we should start by creating a more effective form of decision making and group leadership
15:07<freeside>the primary insight i had was that we shouldn't focus so much on operating according to a system of rules; we should be more interested in creating a sustainable edcology of ideas to which we can mostly subscribe
15:08<csm-laptop>ah there we go
15:08<csm-laptop>it worked yesterday why not today?
15:09<grumpy>because I don't want to hear from you?
15:09<grumpy>;-)
15:09<csm-laptop>hardee-har-har
15:09<grumpy>different IP address
15:09<freeside>mmm
15:10<csm-laptop>we should do registered nic's for the channel... then we won't have those issues
15:10<grumpy>Yeah, yeah, I'm working on the log posting script.
15:11<grumpy>it should be done Real Soon Now
15:11<freeside>in accordance with robert fritz's ideas, we should focus less on problem-solving thinking, which is tactical, and more on creative thinking, which is strategic.
15:12<freeside>for example, spam is not a problem that can be solved. it can only be outgrown.
15:12<freeside>our job is to help the mail system outgrow spam.
15:12<freeside>jon callas at pgp had a great metaphor for me yesterday.
15:12<freeside>dave anderson ahs for a long time been saying that reengineering email is a lot like trying to fix the engine on a racecar that's zooming down a racetrack.
15:13<freeside>but jon callas did had a better idea: reengineering email is like rewiring an old house. oh, and you're not allowed to turn off the power. and the house has 300,000,000 rooms.
15:14<freeside>i liked that.
15:17<grumpy>yeah, you can't turn off the power for the entire house, but you can for certain rooms/sections. some can only be turned off for a very short period of time, others can go dark forever.
15:17<grumpy>so, your idea is that as the house/city continues to be built, we just outgrow the rooms that have gas-light and tar-paper wrapped post wiring?
15:17<grumpy>(city is probably better than house)
15:18<freeside>the problemw ith turning off the light in a room is that all the residents come out from the woodwork and complain.
15:18<grumpy>it depends on the room/house
15:19<grumpy>In a city, a houses get torn down all the time and new roads are built.
15:19<grumpy>people don't like it, but they accept the short-term inconvience if they can see a long term gain.
15:20<grumpy>Ok, speaking of governance, if this isn't quasi-formal council discussions, I would prefer it take place on #spf.
15:22<grumpy>e.g., this channel would be for officially blessing decisions that have been thrashed out in the open forums.
15:22<grumpy>does that sound reasonable?
15:22<freeside>s/thrashed out/thrashed/
15:46<csm-laptop>grumpy: once we have all the council members and present and get a chance to thrash out what we're going to do I'd be comfortabloe with that decision... right now we're all equals here but we shouldn't really try to decide much without at least getting some discussion going with all the members
15:47<grumpy>yeah
15:48<grumpy>I view my "council member hat", much like my "root user hat". I've got no problems putting it on, but I only do it when I need to.
17:34<csm-laptop>okay so the elector major has now declared the election official
17:34<csm-laptop>has anyone seen or heard from Julian since the results were made known?
17:35<grumpy>no. he said he would be back today, but who knows. plans change.
17:37<csm-laptop>I sent an email to spf thanking jpinkerton officially for his work with the election... I also let him know that we were discussing other things we might, possibly ask him to do... assistant to the #spf mailmom was mentioned... anything else?
17:38<grumpy>I think we need to ask gconnor about whether he needs help.
17:38<csm-laptop>yes I think that is appropriate
17:38<grumpy>s/we/you/
17:38<grumpy>;-)
17:38*grumpy delegates
17:39*csm-laptop smacks grumpy!
17:39<grumpy>ok!
17:39<grumpy>I'll do it!
17:39<csm-laptop>he-he
17:39<grumpy>;-)
17:39<csm-laptop>hey... I jumped on jpink... you do something now...
17:39<csm-laptop>he-he
17:39<csm-laptop>:-)
17:39<csm-laptop>are we having fun yet?
19:14<MarkK>evening
19:18<grumpy>good afternoon.
19:18<grumpy>would you mind driving down and waking up Julian? ;-)
19:18<MarkK>I had hoped to meet with here, today :)
19:20<MarkK>Noe that things are official, I was wondering whether we should, either 'en group' or personally, issue a short public statement, thanking people and such?
19:20<csm-laptop>*we* thanked jpinkerton already
19:22<MarkK>yes, I saw that; it was good
19:23<csm-laptop>we need to send up a flare for Julian!
19:36<grumpy>fyi; http://www.schlitt.net/spf-council.html contains the current IRC log.
19:36<grumpy>the url will change, and I need to do a better job of formatting
19:43<MarkK>excellent; perhaos you can filter out the '<---' '--->' commands?
19:44<MarkK>there, I wrote something too :)
19:44<grumpy>Yeah, that is a good idea
19:44*grumpy kicks csm
19:44<grumpy>Apparently, I need to do a bunch of converstions from < and > to &lt; and &gt;
19:45<MarkK>your url brings up a good question: was there not talk of ppl wanting an 'official' spf site? Like you, wayne (I think it was you?), I do not mind calling the spf-pobox site the official SPF site. But I am open to other ideas, of course.
19:46<MarkK>It's a live log! cool
19:46*grumpy is just trying to up the hit count on his website....
19:46<grumpy>;-)
19:47<grumpy>MarkK: yeah, there has been some discussion of that. I think the goal is so that there could be a team of people who update the content. right now, spf.pobox.com can only be modified by Meng.
19:47<grumpy>Meng would have to be willing to give up some control, and I don't think anyone has asked him to.
19:48<grumpy>(btw, he is travelling today. I think he is currently at earthlink)
19:48<MarkK>the 'official' website has not my greatest priority, though
19:49<grumpy>agreed
19:49<grumpy>although it is something that, once the council gives the blessing, people can work on.
19:50<MarkK>yes
19:51<MarkK>btw, how do youdo that 'live' log? do you just rewrite the .html file? Or is it fancier?
19:52<MarkK>It's cute, though ;)
19:52<grumpy>no, it is uglier than that.
19:52<grumpy>(bash script, sed and cron)
19:52<MarkK>Well, it still works :)
19:52*grumpy is a hacker
20:00<MarkK>the page keeps updating every second, now; can you have it expire, say, every minute (that is the highest cron granularity anyway)
20:01<grumpy>that should be fixed.
20:01*grumpy didn't say he was a *good* hacker.
20:01<MarkK>it's minor :)
20:04<MarkK>Perhaps I should email Julian; maybe he'd like to join?
20:04<grumpy>he usually shows up on #spf
20:05<MarkK>what is his nick again?
20:05<grumpy>Julian
20:05<MarkK>doh :)
20:06<MarkK>Oh, the dereference of '%m' minutes variable seems to not go entirely right yet, either; aren't I annoying? ;)
20:06<grumpy>$#*(&#
20:07<grumpy>I thought I had that fixed
20:07*grumpy wonders what those characters are going to do in the html file
20:07*grumpy writes the script to disk
20:17<MarkK>yep, it's fixed now :)
20:23<grumpy>Yay! new url!
20:25<csm-laptop>I know Julian is not here but I think that what freeside was saying has some merit
20:25<csm-laptop>we were elected to do SPF's business
20:25<grumpy>what did freeside say?
20:25*grumpy probably agrees, but...
20:25<csm-laptop>some of that is competitive in nature and should not be public information
20:25<csm-laptop>we *DO* need the ability to have a private conversation
20:26<grumpy>yes
20:26<grumpy>I just want to keep it to a minimum
20:27<csm-laptop>as it stands we've got gman wanting to arhive the mailing list and this channel to have publicly archived logs... just exactly where would a "private" conversation take place?
20:27<grumpy>spf-council-executive-session?
20:28<MarkK>I agree; we *DO* need a place to discuss sensitive issues in private
20:28<csm-laptop>I would have no objection to that...
20:28<csm-laptop>now what I had in mind was something similar to what LPI does
20:28<MarkK>me neither
20:29<csm-laptop>they have an lpi-staff mailing list which all directors and staff participate in
20:29<csm-laptop>the board of directors have the vast majority of their discussions there.
20:29<csm-laptop>but when they need privacy the have the lpi-board mailing list... and it is not public
20:29<grumpy>sounds reasonable
20:30<MarkK>yes
20:30<csm-laptop>that is why I wanted to create the spf-council mailing list on a private host so it would be our "private" place
20:30<grumpy>Oh.
20:31<MarkK>I see no immediate need to move the list; does anyone else?
20:31<grumpy>I thought this was just a place where our discussions wouldn't clutter up #spf and spf-discuss and where other people's comments wouldn't drown out our discussions.
20:31<grumpy>I see no need to move the list.
20:31<csm-laptop>but then the suggestion was made that we should allow others to subscribe and I acceded to that wish but in retrospect I think we'd be better off if we had at least one place that we could have discussions behind closed doors...
20:32<MarkK>Meng did, I think
20:32<csm-laptop>yeah Meng wanted to move it
20:32<csm-laptop>I wanted it in a private place
20:32<csm-laptop>I dunno listbox does he admin it?
20:32<grumpy>he is one of the admins
20:33<MarkK>so do I; I think there is nothing wrong with keeping at least our private list private
20:33<csm-laptop>okay well moongroup has only one admin
20:33<csm-laptop>so hwo about this
20:33<grumpy>can we trust you?
20:33<grumpy>;-)
20:33<csm-laptop>we create an spf-staff list
20:33<csm-laptop>on listbox
20:34<grumpy>or spf-politics?
20:35<csm-laptop>and the council and any selected staff use that for their discussions and that would leave the council free to use the spf-council mailing list for private stuff
20:35<grumpy>for all I care, the other list could be on moongroup
20:35<grumpy>Well, since spf-council is already set up, why don't we create an spf-private
20:36<csm-laptop>okay
20:36<csm-laptop>I'm really open for anything here so long as we meet Meng's very reasonable request for a private place
20:37<grumpy>I'm open too, as long as the private place is used only for things that need to be private.
20:37<MarkK>agreed
20:37<csm-laptop>yes... and it works okay because there are those of us who are concerned with openness who will continually point out when we're closing a process that does not need to be
20:38<grumpy>For example, the old spf-oracle list was lightly used, and generally for things that were private, but the "spf-council" list on uh, gmc's box was just SPF-discuss with a smaller group of people.
20:51<csm-laptop>okay... check your email... (all of you)
--- Fri Dec 3 01:20:18 UTC 2004 ---
01:20<csm>freeside... did you figure out what was up with your in bound mail from the council list?
02:09<freeside>yeah, it was getting saved to some other mailbxo
02:13<csm>thought it might have been on your end
02:22<csm>freeside: did you see my comments about an "executive" list which is not public?
02:50<freeside>yeah
02:58<csm>okay good
02:59<csm>you should have a subscription message from it as well... send "non-public" info there
02:59<csm>the archives for that list are private as it's the distribution...
03:08<freeside>thanks
03:16<csm>you're welcome... I know you wanted it and I knew we needed it so... /me shrugs... :-)
19:18<Julian>Hey!
19:19*Julian adds #spf-council to the auto-join list.
19:19<grumpy>we are trying to set up a time try and get this council thing rolling.
19:19<grumpy>when can you be available?
19:20<Julian>What's a time try?
19:21<grumpy>s/time try/time to try/
19:21*grumpy can't speak english
19:21<Julian>Oh, ok.
19:21<grumpy>btw, congratulations on your election.
19:21<Julian>I am usually available between 09:00 and 01:00 UTC.
19:22<Julian>Thanks.
19:23<Julian>We had such a good collection of candidates, I was having a hard time choosing myself. Some candidates were an easy choice (you, Meng), but the others... :)
19:23<grumpy>MarkK usually shows up in the evening (UTC), so maybe that would work
19:23<grumpy>agreed.
19:25*Julian gets a snack.
19:25*csm-laptop smacks Julian for that "others" comment! ;-)
19:25<Julian>csm: Hey! ;-)
19:26<csm-laptop>wuzzup bud?
19:26<csm-laptop>how was the "vacation"?
19:26<Julian>Busy it was.
19:26<Julian>I had a conference with some EU Greens.
19:27<csm-laptop>oye
19:27<csm-laptop>so we need to have a meeting
19:27<csm-laptop>get everybody together at the same time
19:28<csm-laptop>for those of us who are UTC impaired what US east coast time fram are you available?
19:28<Julian>Tomorrow evening (UTC) would probably be a good time.
19:28<Julian>Hum. :)
19:30<Julian>What time zone is US east coast? +06?
19:30<Julian>-06, I mean?
19:30<grumpy>yeah, at this time of year.
19:30*grumpy thinks that EU has daylight savings time, but it isn't quite in sync with the US
19:31<Julian>20:00 UTC = 14:00 +06
19:31<Julian>Uh...
19:31<Julian>20:00 UTC = 14:00 -06, that is.
19:31<Julian>(Why is it I keep mixing up - and +?)
19:31<grumpy>I could do that.
19:31<csm-laptop>this is why some of us are UTC impaired
19:32<grumpy>(wayne@backbone$ TZ=UTC date
19:32<csm-laptop>so would 1400 tomorrow work for you?
19:32<grumpy>that's always my solution. ;-)
19:33<Julian>io:~> TZ=UTC date
19:33<Julian>Fri Dec 3 19:33:05 UTC 2004
19:33<Julian>io:~> date -u
19:33<Julian>Fri Dec 3 19:33:16 UTC 2004
19:33<Julian>;-)
19:34<csm-laptop>Julian: would 2000 your time... 1400 our time... tomorrow work for you?
19:34<Julian>csm: Yes. My time is 21:00, though (I'm +01).
19:34<csm-laptop>okay so where in the world is Julian San Diego?
19:35<grumpy>DE, IIRC
19:35<Julian>Right, DE. Munich/Bavaria, to be more precise.
19:36<csm-laptop>Oh I love that part of De
19:36<csm-laptop>beautiful down there
19:36<grumpy>I guess the only council member's city I haven't visited is chucks...
19:37<csm-laptop>Salzburg and Berchtesgaden are so close
19:37<csm-laptop>oh... and Garmisch too
19:38<Julian>Where's Chuck?
19:38<csm-laptop>today I am in Raleigh, NC
19:39<Julian>csm: I mean, where do you live usually?
19:39<csm-laptop>sunday through thursday I will be in NYC
19:39<csm-laptop>I own a home here but am on the road a lot
19:39<Julian>I see.
19:40<csm-laptop>I teach for Red Hat... :-)
19:41<Julian>grumpy: The #spf-council logger is a good idea. Does it keep an archive of older sessions?
19:42<csm-laptop>listen... I have to steop out for a bit... is tomorrow at 1400 my time acceptable for an IRC chat?
19:42<grumpy>they get posted to the spf-council mailing list.
19:42<csm-laptop>I will send email to announce it if you guys agree
19:42<grumpy>fine with me
19:43*Julian is fine with that too.
19:43<csm-laptop>email sent
19:44<csm-laptop>bbiab... prolly headed home but I have to stick my head into the office first... exam is offer... classroom is cleaned up... I'm out of here!
20:34<csm>back
--- Sat Dec 4 00:31:16 UTC 2004 ---
00:31<Julian>See you at ~10:00 UTC.
00:31<Julian>(...and of course at 20:00 UTC.)
18:43<freeside>moooo
18:44<csm>b0rk
18:52<freeside>what's the agenda for the meeting?
18:52<freeside>i have been working on a HSARPA proposal which i'm ready to show the council.
18:57<csm>we need to have an organizational discussion
18:57<csm>we've been elected... now we have to figure out how we're going to operate
18:57<Julian>I agree.
18:58<freeside>motion has been seconded; it passes.
18:58<freeside>however, the meeting has not been called to order.
18:58<Julian>I think we should first decide whether we are going to set up organizational structures and then re-vote.
18:58<freeside>the motion is therefore void.
18:59*Julian is not a rules freak.
18:59<freeside>i think it's important for us to agree on mission and objective.
18:59<Julian>Yup.
19:00<freeside>we should also review work that's being done and see what's lacking.
19:00<freeside>also raising the level of discourse and reducing the volume on the list would be nice.
19:01<csm>well the meeting needs to wait until the appointed time...
19:01<Julian>You're taking the words out of my mouth. ;-)
19:01<csm>we're early
19:01<freeside>what's the appointed time?
19:01*Julian gets something to eat. bbl
19:01<freeside>i need a few minutes to generate some PDF anyway
19:01<Julian>freeside: 20:00 UTC.
19:01<Julian>It's 19:00 now.
19:02<csm>yay!
19:02<csm>someone call this gaggle to order then
19:02<csm>and somebody send out an APB on Mark
19:02<csm>he said he's be here
19:02<freeside>are you sure? i thoguht we said 2pm eastern
19:03<csm>it *IS* 2pm eastern
19:04<csm>[csm@stealth ~]$ date
19:04<csm>Sat Dec 4 14:04:35 EST 2004
19:05<freeside>julian seems to think we're an hour away
19:05<freeside>i need to go get a snack. brb
19:05<csm>okees
19:05*csm smacks Julian...
19:05<csm>I told you I was UTC impaired when we discussed this...
19:05<csm>dang it!
19:06<Julian>csm:
19:06<Julian>io:~> date -uIm
19:06<Julian>2004-12-04T19:05+0000
19:06<Julian>Typing `date -u` shouldn't be too hard. ;-)
19:07<csm>yes... *BUT* I asked *YOU* about this... essentially what time would it be UTC when it's 2pm eastern in the US!
19:07*csm is blaming *YOU* for this debacle
19:07<csm>LOL!
19:07<freeside>point of order: blame cannot be officially transferred without a simple majority vote of the council.
19:08<Julian>Well, ok, if you want we can start right now, too.
19:09<csm>bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahhaahahaha
19:09*csm thinks this is gonna be fun
19:09<freeside>ok, who's 'here?
19:09<csm>it's not a big deal really... just having a bit of fun
19:09*Julian is not a "US eastern time" expert. :-)
19:10<freeside>show of hands for those present, please
19:10*csm is UTC impaired... Julian is US EST impaired
19:10<freeside>grumpy, shew, MarkK
19:10<csm>hand
19:10*Julian waves with his right hand.
19:11*csm waves with his left hand
19:11<freeside>we have a quorum, but i'd rather not proceed without at least one other person
19:11*csm notes that the right hand was on the coffee cup
19:12<Julian>I think we should not start before 20:00 UTC if not all of us are present.
19:12<csm>aye...
19:12<csm>we have to wait another hour
19:12<freeside>ok
19:12*csm sulks
19:13<csm>grumpy is prolly with his kids
19:13<csm>but... on a completely unrelated topic I am quite pleased at the moment
19:13<csm>found the damnrpm that contains the /lib/modules/%version/build dir on rhel4
19:21<freeside>hm, i'm going to go outside to forage
19:21<freeside>brb
19:21<csm>:-)
19:22*csm trolled the kitchen an hour ago
19:22<csm>caught some stuff too!
19:38<freeside>mmm.
19:50<grumpy>ugh
19:50*grumpy realizes he mistranslated tz's
19:50<grumpy>sorry guys
19:50<csm>no worries
19:51<csm>we're tied to 2000 UTC (regardless of our 1400 EST declaration) which is not for 10 more minutes
19:51<grumpy>Oh
19:51<Julian>grumpy: :)
19:51*grumpy is saved by the mistranslations of tz's
19:52<csm>[root@stealth ~]# date -u
19:52<csm>Sat Dec 4 19:52:06 UTC 2004
19:52*csm has been edumacated about UTC by Julian!
19:53*Julian sings: Why can't we all just live in a single timezone?
20:00<grumpy>20:00 UTC
20:00<Julian>Hrrm.
20:00<freeside>mmm
20:00<grumpy>MarkK was around earlier...
20:00<grumpy>~5hrs ago.
20:01<Julian>Heh.
20:02<freeside>good, we're all here.
20:02<grumpy>even if MarkK is an hour late.
20:02<grumpy>sorry MarkK, should have noticed that.
20:02<MarkK>what do you mean, an hour late? I am at GMT+1
20:03<grumpy>just kidding..
20:03<grumpy>Chuck, Meng and I all got confused, I guess.
20:03<MarkK>pfew :)
20:03<grumpy>Actually, I thought it was supposed to be now, but on my way back from seeing my kids, I realized that csm said 14:00 EST, which was an hour ago.
20:04<Julian>MarkK: You're at +01 too? Where do you live?
20:04<grumpy>NL
20:04<MarkK>The Netherlands
20:04<Julian>ok
20:04<grumpy>just west of where I used to live. (Utrecht)
20:04<Julian>Is there DST (daylight saving time) in EST?
20:04<MarkK>cool :)
20:04<grumpy>yes
20:05<grumpy>but, IIRC, the US and EU don't switch at on the same day
20:05<Julian>Hmm. Isn't EST supposed to be -06?
20:05<Julian>(including DST)
20:05*MarkK 's head hurts :)
20:05<grumpy>ok, shall we get the show on the road?
20:05<MarkK>yes
20:06<grumpy>csm: you here?
20:06*grumpy was last seen trolling for food in the kitchen.
20:06<Julian>io:~> TZ=EST date
20:06<Julian>Sat Dec 4 15:06:08 EST 2004
20:06<Julian>Hmm.
20:07<grumpy>csm?
20:07<MarkK>what the heck is up with all this djbdns talk, btw? :)
20:08<grumpy>oh, it is just some idiots that don't understand that emacs has the true DNS server built in.
20:09<MarkK>shall we get started?
20:09<Julian>csm: ping
20:09<grumpy>freeside: you here?
20:09<freeside>i'm here.
20:09<freeside>so, let's get started
20:10<grumpy>ok
20:10*freeside looks at the agenda.
20:10<csm>pong
20:10*grumpy looks for an agenda
20:10<grumpy>Whee!
20:10<grumpy>Uh, I think the first thing we need to decide is what what our goals are, and what our organization should be
20:10<freeside>i suggest for now we proceed without adopting robert's rules, and if we get to a point where we need them, we can revisit the issue.
20:11<freeside>so, moving on to the goals and organizational form.
20:11<csm>I agree... keep it simple for now
20:11*grumpy misread "without" as "with"
20:11<grumpy>*wheee*
20:11*grumpy agrees with freeside
20:11<Julian>I also object to using RRO.
20:11<MarkK>yes, abide by the KISS principle; if we need to complicate matters along the way, we can always do so later :)
20:12<Julian>I think it's too complicated, and over-kill in effect.
20:12<grumpy>Shall we adopt the IETF WG process until we need to have other rules?
20:12<freeside>we can, of course, use whatever useful subset of the RRO if we want to.
20:12<freeside>for example, we can call for a vote on something at any time, and try to poll council members to see what they think.
20:12<Julian>Yes
20:12<MarkK>yes
20:12<freeside>yes
20:12<grumpy>yes
20:12<csm>eh?
20:12<freeside>what are we all saying yes to?
20:13<grumpy>that we can call for a vote
20:13<Julian>"for example, we can call for a vote on something at any time, and try to poll council members to see what they think."
20:13<grumpy>if we need to
20:13<freeside>ok, fine.
20:13<freeside>okay, so, let's keep going.
20:13<grumpy>should we define a quorum?
20:13<csm>simple rule
20:13<Julian>How long is this chat supposed to last?
20:13<csm>wait
20:13<csm>simple rule
20:13<csm>no vote without a proposal and a second
20:14<grumpy>I can live with that.
20:14<csm>I propose we adopt that rule
20:14<freeside>okay, sounds good
20:14<MarkK>me too
20:14<Julian>Me too
20:14<csm>so seconded
20:14<csm>votes?
20:14<csm>aye
20:14<grumpy>yes
20:14<freeside>yes
20:14<Julian>yes
20:14<MarkK>yes
20:14<csm>it's anonymous
20:14<csm>:-)
20:14<grumpy>I propose a quorum is 4 members
20:14<csm>I second
20:14<csm>3 is too few
20:14<freeside>aye
20:15<Julian>yes
20:15<MarkK>yes
20:15<csm>aye
20:15<csm>grumpy proposed so that make it anonymous
20:15<csm>:-)
20:15<freeside>so, next point, i think we can run the chat for 1 hour, and adjourn if somebody has to go after that
20:15<csm>I second
20:15<Julian>Ok. /me has time, but still wanted to know.
20:15<grumpy>I can run longer, but 1hr is fine
20:16<freeside>ok.
20:16<freeside>let's somebody get {0pm3} to handle the anonymous voting and take it from there if that capability shows up
20:16<freeside>meanwhile are we going to meet weekly or what?
20:16<csm>weekly I think should be the minimum
20:16<Julian>I guess {0pm3} is a bot, right?
20:16<grumpy>yes
20:16<csm>Julian: yes
20:16<grumpy>right now, it just knows how to op people
20:17<csm>freeside has proposed weekly meetings
20:17<freeside>ok, i'd be happy to meet weekly on irc
20:17<MarkK>me too
20:17<csm>seconded
20:17<grumpy>I think it should be more often, at least initially
20:17<csm>votes?
20:17<Julian>I propose to meet _at least_ weakly.
20:17<csm>second proposal
20:17<MarkK>I also believe we should be able to call inter-mediate meetings, if the need arises
20:17<csm>I could/do/will second that one too
20:17<csm>hold on a sec
20:18<csm>so if I read this right
20:18<freeside>interim meetings coul dbe called with 24 hours notice on the mailing list
20:18<csm>we have a proposal to meet *at least* weekly
20:18<MarkK>aye to that proposal
20:18<Julian>freeside: seconded
20:18<csm>and additional meetings can be called with 24 hours notice
20:18<csm>so weekly + 24?
20:18<grumpy>yeah, that sounds good to me.
20:18<Julian>seconded
20:18<MarkK>seconded
20:18<csm>votes?
20:18<grumpy>aye
20:18<freeside>ayup
20:18<Julian>yes
20:18<csm>aye
20:19<csm>okay
20:19<csm>the day for the scheduled weekly
20:19<csm>saturday or sunday?
20:19<grumpy>Sundays actually work better for me.
20:19<csm>I will tell you now that I often have to travel on sunday
20:19<csm>this time otmorrow I will be en-route to NYC
20:19<grumpy>I can do saturdays, if I plan ahead
20:20<csm>and that's typical
20:20<grumpy>I can also do weekdays
20:20<grumpy>other opinions?
20:20<Julian>We could choose Sat, and fall back on Sun if necessary.
20:20<csm>weekdays are a problem for me... I am an instructor
20:20<grumpy>true
20:20<csm>and since some of you are in europe that makes it tough
20:21<csm>we'd be late at night for those guys
20:21<grumpy>Well, it is evening for them
20:21<Julian>Well, the time difference between us is about 7h, right?
20:21<grumpy>ok, saturdays, unless moved?
20:21<Julian>grumpy: seconded
20:21<MarkK>seconded
20:21<freeside>at this time, particularly?
20:21<csm>saturdays I just need to know the time
20:22<grumpy>it would be slightly better for me for an hour earlier
20:22<Julian>Anything between 10:00 and 22:00 UTC would be fine for me.
20:22<csm>and for me
20:22<freeside>okay, 2pm eastern then
20:22<Julian>That's 19:00 UTC.
20:22<freeside>with a note to keep julian waiting by an hour when we switch to daylight savings
20:22<grumpy>so, 19:00 UTC Saturdays, until DST takes over, and then it is either 18:00 or 20:00?
20:22<Julian>freeside: Heh.
20:23<Julian>grumpy: UTC doesn't have DST. Why not just keep a constant UTC time?
20:23<csm>we should just express it in UTC
20:23<csm>now that Julian has trained me I can do it
20:23<csm>:-)
20:24<grumpy>Well, I think we can deal with DST when we get to that point.
20:24<csm>okay... well I am fine with 1900 UTC
20:24<grumpy>mostion: meetings at 19:00 UTC saturdays or with 24hr notice
20:24<grumpy>motion even
20:24<csm>seconded
20:24<grumpy>votes?
20:24<csm>aye
20:24<MarkK>seconded
20:24<grumpy>aye
20:24<Julian>yes
20:25<freeside>aye
20:25<csm>anonymous
20:25<csm>:-)
20:25<grumpy>motion: we need a secretary to summarize and report to SPF-discuss
20:25<csm>so... who chairs the gaggle?
20:25<csm>grumpy: chair first then others
20:25<grumpy>ok
20:25*grumpy nominates csm as chair
20:26<grumpy>does anyone have experience being the chair?
20:26*grumpy doesn't
20:26<csm>I do
20:26*Julian neither
20:26<csm>but I won't do it without a second and a vote... :-)
20:26<Julian>csm: Do you accept the nomination?
20:26<MarkK>I second csm
20:26<csm>yes..
20:26*grumpy also doesn't know RRoO(r)v10 backwards and forwards
20:27<Julian>LOL
20:27<grumpy>other nominations?
20:27<Julian>csm is good.
20:27<csm>I would like to take a moment for some discussion
20:27<csm>I have some thoughts about this
20:27<csm>I had thought that it would likely be freeside or me
20:28<csm>but I *MUCH* prefer that he be free to focus on the technical aspects of what needs to be done
20:28<csm>the *CHAIR* is really an admin position
20:28<grumpy>yes
20:28<Julian>I agree.
20:28<grumpy>in some orgs, the chair can't even vote unless there is a tie
20:28<Julian>Well, I can do the summarizing/reporting part.
20:28<csm>and I want to move some things along without having to get embroiled into technical details...
20:28<csm>Julina: that's the secretary... we have ot get this one done first
20:28<grumpy>freeside: ? MarkK ?
20:29<Julian>(...if the traffic on the council list doesn't get too high.)
20:29<csm>anyway... I think/thought/was hgoping
20:29<csm>hoping
20:29<freeside>ok, as long as i get some kind of title i can use to explain to the world that i'm involved in some way here
20:29<csm>freeside: Exect=utive Director was my choice for you
20:29<grumpy>Julian: an important part is to dig through these logs and properly record what we voted on.
20:30<Julian>grumpy: I know. That's the easy part of reporting, I guess.
20:30<freeside>speaking of voting, i think we should preface vote topics with a unique identifier, and votes should correspond
20:30<Julian>freeside: seconded
20:30<csm>freeside: the ED runs the day to day and makes the operation go... the chair just makes the meetings work
20:30<MarkK>freeside: seconded
20:30<freeside>ok, sounds good
20:31<freeside>i vote csm to chair the meeting
20:31<freeside>er,
20:31<freeside>2031a: i vote csm to chair the meeting
20:31<grumpy>2031a: 2nd'ed
20:31<csm>votes?
20:31<grumpy>votes?
20:31<Julian>yes
20:31<grumpy>2031a: aye
20:31<Julian>2031a: yes
20:32<csm>MarkK?
20:32<MarkK>2031a: yes
20:32<freeside>2031a: yes, though i think if i propose it i don't have to vote again :)
20:32<csm>that being a majority I here by call this first meeting to order! :-)
20:32*grumpy agrees with freeside 1432
20:32<grumpy>Whee!
20:32<freeside>okay, csm has the conch
20:32<csm>the chair is prepared to entertain motions for secretary
20:32*grumpy nominates Julian
20:32*Julian accepts.
20:32*csm seconds
20:33<Julian>(That was 2032a, I guess.)
20:33<csm>so labeled
20:33<csm>additional votes
20:33<freeside>2032a: yes
20:33<grumpy>2032a yes
20:33<MarkK>2032a: yes
20:33<Julian>2032a: yes
20:33<csm>so ordered
20:33<csm>the chair is prepared to entertain motions for Executive Director
20:33*grumpy nominates freeside
20:33*freeside observes that people are using robert's rules without knowing it
20:34*csm seconds
20:34<MarkK>is this 2033a?
20:34<Julian>(freeside: I thought that was the point of RRO... :)
20:34<csm>so labeled
20:34*grumpy observes that RRoO(r)v10 isn't the only set of parlmentary rules
20:34<csm>the chair is prepared to vote on 2033a unless there is additional discussion
20:35<csm>without discussion the chair puts 2033a to a vote
20:35<grumpy>2033a: aye
20:35<MarkK>2033a: yes
20:35<Julian>2033a: yes
20:35*grumpy notes that freeside never accepted.
20:35*grumpy doesn't care
20:35<freeside>ok, i accept
20:35*csm notes that freeside asked for it anyway
20:36<freeside>okey dokey
20:36<grumpy>ok, what's up next?
20:36<Julian>Can we use consecutive numbers as vote prefixes instead of UTC time + letter?
20:36<csm>a short definition
20:36<freeside>step 3: profit!
20:36<grumpy>lol
20:36<csm>freeside: the ED position runs the day to day ops and executes the operational will of the council
20:37<csm>it speaks for the council in all things...
20:37<csm>but must adhere ot the will of the council
20:37<csm>we good?
20:37<Julian>So the ED is also the spokesman.
20:37<csm>yes
20:37<Julian>ok
20:37<csm>unless the council issues it's own statement (doubtful)
20:37<grumpy>the ED can say things that aren't the will of the council, if so noted, right?
20:38<Julian>Agreed.
20:38<csm>grumpy: yes... just caveate with an "I think"
20:38<Julian>...if so _explicitly_ noted...
20:38<MarkK>Yes, let the ED make clear he speaks for himself
20:38<grumpy>freeside: ?
20:38<csm>but in matters of execution the councils will has to be done by the ED... it's what the ED exists to do
20:38<freeside>okey dokey
20:39<csm>and that should give you the formal power, authority, voice that you need
20:39<grumpy>ok, sounds good to me then.
20:39<csm>excellent
20:39<MarkK>sounds good to me
20:39<csm>now... there is another piece of business I'd like to bring up and then pass discus