This is the recent traffic on the #SPF-council IRC channel on irc.pobox.com. Anyone may join the channel, but only council members can talk.
If you do not have access to IRC, you may view the recent traffic at: http://www.schlitt.net/spf/spf-council/now/irc_log.html.
This log can be can be viewed at: http://www.schlitt.net/spf/spf-council/2004/12/23_irc_log.html.
IRC nicknames:
| csm | Chuck Mead |
| freeside | Meng Weng Wong |
| grumpy | Wayne Schlitt |
| Julian | Julian Mehnle |
| MarkK | Mark Kramer (asarian-host.net) |
| --- Wed Dec 22 16:29:26 UTC 2004 --- | ||
| 16:29 | <Julian> | Not me, at least. |
| 16:29 | <grumpy> | too late anyway. ;-) |
| 16:33 | <MarkK> | see all y'all next week, then |
| --- Thu Dec 23 02:59:24 UTC 2004 --- | ||
| 02:59 | <csm> | freeside? |
| 04:08 | <freeside> | moo. |
| 04:26 | <csm> | hey... can you check the phone number in the (hopefully) final draft and make sure it is right? |
| 18:45 | <csm-laptop> | okay so here's the deal... |
| 18:45 | <csm-laptop> | we have limited time for these meetings |
| 18:45 | <csm-laptop> | so far we have gone overtime for every single one of them |
| 18:45 | <csm-laptop> | I have looked over the logs of each meeting and I see the same thing everytime |
| 18:46 | <csm-laptop> | the council... when it's meeting... has one purpose... and that is to "steer the ship" |
| 18:46 | <Julian> | It's difficult to plan because it's hard to predict how thoroughly the individual agenda items need to be discussed. |
| 18:47 | <csm-laptop> | but what we end up doing is discussing which sails to put up and which sailors need to do what task and how they should do them etc. etc. etc. |
| 18:47 | <Julian> | Also, all of us have differing views of what is most important. |
| 18:47 | <csm-laptop> | our job during the meetings is *NOT* detailed... we have to take a 50,000 foot view and say to ourselves... "What do we want and what is best for SPF?" |
| 18:48 | <csm-laptop> | this is *NOT* mid-level mgmt... |
| 18:48 | <csm-laptop> | and if we approach the business of the council from that perspective we will stay bogged down in petty details (which we are not even prepared to solve) forever |
| 18:49 | <csm-laptop> | and *THAT* is why I was craking the whip so hard, and so often, yesterday |
| 18:49 | <csm-laptop> | so to restate... |
| 18:49 | <csm-laptop> | our purpose is to pick a direction... |
| 18:49 | <Julian> | You are right, but with some issues, it's hard to see how detailed they need to be managed because they're totally unclear to some of us. Such as "what has to be done in order to get a new SPFv1 draft done"? |
| 18:49 | <csm-laptop> | let the person, or persons assigned to the task deal with the details! |
| 18:50 | <csm-laptop> | hey... that's a great example |
| 18:50 | <Julian> | No, this cannot generally be done. |
| 18:50 | <Julian> | Most of us were also elected to steer in a certain direction with regard to certain details. |
| 18:50 | <csm-laptop> | and that is why my last point is so valid... the council can not possibly decide "what has to be done in order to get a new SPFv1 draft done" |
| 18:51 | <Julian> | So _some_ details need to be discussed within the council. You cannot delegate everything. |
| 18:51 | <csm-laptop> | so we pick someone to do the task and let them deal with the details... the biggest part of our concern is 1. recognition that something needs to be done and then 2. delegating the task |
| 18:53 | <csm-laptop> | I do not disagree with *ALL* that you are saying but if you look at our irc logs... every single decision devolves into a discusion of details and that *MUST* stop or we will not get the business of SPF done in an timely and effective manner |
| 18:54 | <Julian> | I think a commonly agreed on "project agenda" would be very useful, because we could just agree on what needs to be on it, and community members (including us of course) can actually do the things that are on it. |
| 18:55 | <csm-laptop> | I have no objection to that so long as it does not build a box around the council... my statement of the council's purpose from the PR does not build a box and leaves us free to guide the project effectively and still be able to react to incoming items that are new |
| 18:55 | <Julian> | The problem with the chaotic/anarchistic approach is that everyone has some good ideas, but no one has the manpower to do most of them alone. So it should be democratically decided what things to do as a group. |
| 18:56 | <Julian> | If something has been decided to be a worthwile effort, more community members may be willing to take part in the efforts. |
| 18:56 | <csm-laptop> | well we're like a senate or a council of ministers... so we have to make some decisions based on our mandates... we've moved on almost 100% of those now though some of them are ongoing tasks... but I agree that there is more work to be done |
| 18:56 | <Julian> | Of course this requires community members to part with the idea of only doing things _they_ find worthwile. |
| 18:57 | <csm-laptop> | he-he |
| 18:57 | <csm-laptop> | spoken like a true manager! :-) |
| 18:57 | <Julian> | People need to be willing to do something toward the common goal, even if they're not entirely convinced of it. |
| 18:57 | <Julian> | (it = the particular effort, not the common goal of course) |
| 18:57 | <csm-laptop> | yup |
| 18:58 | * | Julian needs to hone his language skills... |
| 18:58 | <csm-laptop> | there are things that will come up that don't fit my particular view of what should be done but if it's for the overall good of SPF I will, eventually, come around! :-) |
| 18:59 | <csm-laptop> | but anyway... I am not going to be any different during our next meeting... I will continue to crack the whip and move us forward... we can't sit and chat all day about details that it's not even our job to solve or consider |
| 18:59 | <csm-laptop> | :-) |
| 19:00 | <Julian> | I think we (the project) should create a charter ASAP that clearly states the project's common goals, so people can get convinced that certain efforts are worthwile. |
| 19:00 | <Julian> | Re: discussing the details: some things we argued about yesterday were very basic, such as the quorum issue. These things _have_to_ be sorted out, or the whole decision process doesn't work. |
| 19:02 | <csm-laptop> | I thought we handled the quorum issue pretty well actually... we all know now how it's supposed to work |
| 19:02 | <csm-laptop> | as to the project's goals I agree... and we discussed it yesterday |
| 19:03 | <csm-laptop> | yeah... it was agenda item 7 |
| 19:04 | <Julian> | Yeah. |
| 19:13 | <Julian> | Have you heard anything from Meng regarding the HSARPA proposal? |
| 19:21 | <csm-laptop> | nope... just the draft that's on the private mailng list |
| 19:21 | <Julian> | Hmm. |
| 19:23 | <csm-laptop> | but I don't think Meng is working much right now |